Yale Radio Interviews

5 questions (and then some) with Merry Scully for Yale Radio

Currently a curator at the New Mexico Museum of Art, Merry Scully she has curated exhibitions of contemporary art, photography and design in locations across the country including the New Mexico Museum of Art, San Francisco Art Institute, and the Barbara and Steven Grossman Gallery at The School of the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. Previously she was the Associate Director of Exhibitions and Public Programs, and later the Director of Exhibitions and Galleries at the San Francisco Art Institute.

Merry has worked as a director in various organization and commercial galleries, including the Fellows of Contemporary Art, Elizabeth Leach Gallery, Richard Levy Gallery, and Graham Gallery/Raw Space. Prior to graduate school, Merry was the assistant to the artistic director and gallery coordinator for Social and Public Art Resource in Venice, California and an intern in the Media and Performing Arts Department at the Museum of Contemporary Art, Los Angeles.

5 Questions for "The Art World Demystified": In conversation with Irene Hofmann for Yale Radio

Photo: Kate Russell

Photo: Kate Russell

Irene Hofmann is the Phillips Director and Chief Curator of SITE Santa Fe, a position she has held since 2011. In her role at SITE she is expanding the breadth and reach of SITE’s exhibition program, which includes reimagining SITE’s signature biennial exhibition as a new series of connected biennials with a focus on contemporary art from the Americas.

Over the last decade she has curated new commissions and solo exhibitions by artists including Joseph Grigely, Mungo Thomson, Enrique Martinez Celaya, Jason Dodge, Marjetica Potrc, Fabrice Gygi, and Inigo Manglano-Ovalle. She has also held positions at the Contemporary Museum, Baltimore, the Orange County Museum of Art, Cranbrook Art Museum, the Art Institute of Chicago, the Walker Art Center, and the New Museum of Contemporary Art. She holds a BA in Art History from Washington University in St. Louis, and a MA in Modern Art History, Theory, and Criticism from The School of the Art Institute of Chicago.


5 Questions for "The Art World Demystified": In conversation with Connie Butler For Yale University Radio

Connie Butler joined the Hammer Museum as Chief Curator in 2013 where she oversees the Hammer’s curatorial department—developing and organizing exhibitions and building the Hammer Contemporary Collection. Since that time, she co-curated the Hammer’s critically acclaimed biennial exhibition, Made in L.A. 2014, and recently opened Mark Bradford: Scorched Earth.

Previously Ms. Butler was The Robert Lehman Foundation Chief Curator of Drawings at The Museum of Modern Art (2006-2013), where she co-curated the first major Lygia Clark retrospective in North America. Additionally she co-organized the exhibitions Alina Szapocznikow: Sculpture Undone 1955-1972 (2011) and On Line: Drawing through the Twentieth Century at MoMA (2010), and co-curated the survey Greater New York (2010) at MoMA PS1. She is the co-editor of Modern Women: Women Artists at the Museum of Modern Art, a groundbreaking examination of works by modern and contemporary women artists in MOMA’s collection.

From 1996–2006 she served as curator at MOCA where she organized the internationally acclaimed exhibition WACK! Art and the Feminist Revolution (2007).  Among other projects, Ms. Butler is currently working on an a retrospective of Italian artist Marisa Merz which will open at the Hammer in 2017.


Interviewed by Angela Fraleigh

>> BC:  You are listening to Yale Radio, WYBC.  This is Brainard Carey with The Art World Demystified.

>> AF:  Hello, my name is Angela Fraleigh.  I'm here today talking with Connie Butler, Chief Curator of the Hammer Museum of Art at the University of California, Los Angeles.  Welcome.  Thank you for being with us today.

>> CB:  Thank you.  I'm happy to do it.

>> AF:  Let me just start by asking you what your personal path was into this field?  What drew you to the arts in the first place?

>> CB:  Well, I always ‑‑ I find that one of the things I always say is that being a curator at a certain point was a choice not to make art, but rather to be as close to the process of making art and facilitate the making of art and somehow enable that and support that in all kinds of ways.  And so I guess I made a choice early on somewhere late in college years, when I was a dancer and choreographer and very involved in that.  And that sort of has always been my kind of road not taken, I suppose.  I made a choice, in fact, not to do that, kind of not to be a producing artist, but to go with my major, which was art history at the time, and instead really decided that I wanted to work with living artists and contemporary art and be as close to that and engaged with that as I could be, which initially was, you know, being willing to work as a security guard in a museum or whatever, anything to kind of be close to it. 

And I then got an internship, still in college, at the Museum of Contemporary Art here, where I worked on the first exhibitions that opened what was then called The Temporary Contemporary.  It is now the Geffen Contemporary.  But I was sort of the liaison between the curators and the artists.  So I worked with Michael Heizer, and Maria Nordman, and Robert [Inaudible], and all kinds of artists that they were showing, and did everything from, you know, get coffee and dry cleaning and whatever else, to paint the floors of the museum, to have more substantive ways of, you know, writing text, giving tours. 

It was a young museum at the time, and so I was really exposed to kind of all aspects of it and just knew that that's what I wanted to do.  And I was an art history major in college and sort of came to that late after experimenting with all different kinds of art making.  But then it was really a choice, yeah, not to make art but to stay very close to it.

>> AF:  So you did do studio practice, and at some point you thought you would maybe become an artist? 

>> CB:  I did.  Yeah, I was involved in dance and choreography and was really devoted to that and loved it.  But I guess I didn't love it enough, you know?  And I think at the back of my mind was also just the very, very difficult life of dance.  I kind of new that, because I had been performing sort of on the road at different venues and kind of was exposed to somewhat of what that life would have been.  And for me at the time I just think I didn't want it badly enough.  But I did ‑‑ I do think that my experience with studio practice, you know, studio art, with choreography, I was also a pianist for many years, all of those experiences, I think, really informed how I am as a curator.  And I think it's essential actually to being a good ‑‑ well, it's not essential, I guess.  Lots of my colleagues don't have it.  But I think it's really enriched how I am as a curator.

>> AF:  What specifically?  What parts of the practice, any of the ones that you've mentioned, you know, dance or studio practice?

>> CB:  You know, it's not so much in the specifics of like I know how to make a drawing or something, or I know how to make a dance.  But I ‑‑ or I did at one time.  But more in terms of I feel like I really understand and still value and have such huge respect for what it means to be in the studio.  And that can be a studio of a painter, or a studio of a dancer, or a mover, performer, but I really get the ‑‑ the time of that process, the difficulty of it.  You know, I think of those artists, women artists in particular at the end of the 1960s, artists like Eva Hesse, who writes about what it means to be in the studio, and from, you know, her time at Yale when she just understands that sitting in the studio doing nothing is actually the work of an artist, and that that's work, and what the labor of the studio is.  So those things I feel really kind of deeply.  I feel them deeply, but I also feel deeply grateful that I kind of understand them.

>> AF:  And so do you see parallels in the curatorial research and kind of intellectual kind of pursuit that you engage with on a regular basis?  I mean do you sit in the office and do nothing sometimes to have those kinds of ideas gestate or come to fruition?

>> CB:  I would like to sit in the office and do nothing.  But I ‑‑ yeah, I think particularly more and more for me, particularly since writing is a very important part of my practice as a curator, and it's something that is maybe at the core of what I do, in addition to dealing with objects and artists, that the ‑‑ I mean, yes, the times that are most fruitful for me as a writer and as a thinker, as a curator, are those times when you actually are just letting your brain wander.  Whether it's wander through different source material and reading, and even as a way of warming up to writing or getting into writing, I find that that nothing time is hugely important.

And, of course, you know, in the culture we're in, it's the thing that's the most rare, and the more and more rare.  And I'm very interested in that, and time, and how time figures into the curatorial practice as well.

>> AF:  And I imagine there is multiple responsibilities that you're juggling at all times, beyond just the kind of ideation and putting those things into practice.  So how do you navigate or balance ‑‑ I imagine there's just a creative process.  I can see how they're very parallel in lots of ways.  But there's the creative process of kind of coming up with an exhibition idea and then implementing it.  Let's circle back, though, real quick.  So you said right after school you were working as a security guard?  Is that where you ‑‑

>> CB:  No, I never did do that.  But I do remember going to an opening, this is probably when I was in junior high school or something, going to an opening at a gallery here in Los Angeles, in La Cienega, and walking up to one of the security guards and saying how did you get this job, I want to do this, just because I wanted to be near it.  But, no, I didn't ever work as a security guard. 

But when I was in college, art history major, I did have an internship at the Museum of Contemporary Art here, and then from then on just kind of began to ‑‑ as soon as I graduated, I started working there.

>> AF:  What was your first job there?

>> CB:  I was a secretary, and a really bad one.  I was a secretary then to one of the curators actually, a woman named Elizabeth Smith, who is now in New York with the Helen Frankenthaler Foundation, but I was her secretary.  I was shared I think between two curators.  It was a very small staff then.  And I worked on those exhibitions, and again was kind of a liaison with the artists that they were working with.  And it was just a fabulous experience.  And I then at a certain point realized I needed graduate experience, and so I went back to graduate school at Berkeley and then kind of just went from there to the different jobs that I have had.

>> AF:  Can you just go through those jobs really quickly?  Like what led you?

>> CB:  Sure.  Yeah, yeah.  So after graduate school for my first official curatorial job, I followed Julia Brown Turell.  She was then Turell.  She had been the Chief Curator at MoCA in Los Angeles, and then she went to be the Director of the Des Moines Art Center in Iowa.  So I went to be the curator at the Des Moines Art Center.

>> AF:  And she knew you, or you had known her from working together?

>> CB:  Yes.  We had worked together here.  And she knew I was finishing school, and she just sort of gave me a leg up, because it was a huge open door to ‑‑ it's an extraordinary museum with a great history, great collection, one of these wonderful, venerable Midwestern institutions.  So I just moved to Des Moines, Iowa, at 24 years old.  And it was crazy on a social level.  I mean it was just weird.  And I hated it.  But, it was ‑‑ by that I mean I really didn't like the Midwest very much.  It didn't suit me at that time.  And they did not know what to do with a 24‑year‑old single woman at all.  They just thought I was weird and crazy.  And, yeah, so I took that job for a few years. 

But it was an amazing place to make exhibitions and to work on a collection.  We worked with extraordinary artists.  We did public projects in a park there with Richard Serra, made shows with Lewis Baltz, and Wolfgang Lieb, and Elizabeth Murray, all kinds of wonderful artists.  And this was in the mid 1980s. 

So that's where I sort of got my feet wet, and then from there took a job in New York, kind of thinking at that time that I had to do a little time in New York and wanting to.  I took a job as curator of Artists Space, which was then in Tribeca.  And that was fantastic, because it was a way to be in the New York art world, be really in the center of it, but be off to the side somehow, a little bit out of main ‑‑ the intensity of say the bigger institutions and the commercial gallery world.  And so I landed there in 1989. 

And immediately that institution went into a period of controversy with the National Endowment for the Arts over an exhibition that was organized by Nan Goldin, and involved David Wojnarovicz, and funding that was taken away.  It was this very conservative moment.  And that was amazing as an experience, because it really politicized me in a way that I never had been before.  Sort of being a child of the '80s and the Reagan years and so on, I just didn't ‑‑ I had protested Reagan maybe once, but I never ‑‑ it really politicized me, and that was terrific, and changed me deeply, that experience. 

So I went from there to being ‑‑ I was going to go to the Whitney program and instead got a job at the Neuberger Museum in West Chester as Curator of Contemporary Art.  And one of the things I've always thought I did well by accident was to choose very different kinds of institutions to work at, so from Artists Space to a university art museum, which the Neuberger was, is.  And that was wonderful and allowed me to stay in New York City.  I lived in Brooklyn and commuted to West Chester and did great shows, I think, and really began there to do ‑‑ I mean at Artists Space I did all my own ‑‑ of course did my exhibitions also.  But, anyway, yeah, sort of went from there.

>> AF:  How did you find artists when you were working at Artists Space as compared to working in the museum setting?  Did artists apply?  It was a nonprofit?  It's a nonprofit?

>> CB:  Yeah, it's a nonprofit, non‑collecting space, whose really primary audience is the art community, which was amazing.  And I loved, you know, making exhibitions for artists, which is what I still think I do.

Yes, people did apply, but rarely did we ‑‑ I guess rarely did an exhibition happen just out of someone applying cold.  There was a wonderful resource called The Artists File I think it was called at the time, where anyone could submit their materials.  And we did once a year go through that Artists File and make actually a group exhibition from that.  And that was great.  But it was ‑‑ what was great about it was that I really got in the habit of making many studio visits.  Just every week I would make ten or eleven studio visits, just in an ongoing way.  So to be able to do a sort of deep dive into the New York world of artists at that time, which was very big, but much smaller than it is now.

>> AF:  Was this early '90s?

>> CB:  Early '90s.  So this is early '90s.  That was fantastic.  And to also mount an exhibition every six weeks, which is more like a gallery schedule, was amazing, because you don't have time to overthink it.  There's a huge potential for failure, which is what those spaces are about and should be about, I think.  Although they are a little bit less maybe about that now.  But it was amazing, just the amount of material that I went through and that was really ‑‑ it was just a huge education, and in some ways the best job I've ever had.  It was wonderful.

>> AF:  How were you finding the artists that you were doing those ten studio visits a week with?  Was it just from worth of mouth?  Other artists recommending them?  Or did you have a network that you were ‑‑ 

>> CB:  I didn't really have a network, because I came to New York from the Midwest essentially.  I sort of came out of left field.  So it was mostly recommendations.  It was that artist's file.  Artists Space had a lot of artists on its board at that time; Cindy Sherman, Nancy Dwyer, Alfredo Jarr.  They would suggest people.  And that was great.  And, you know, once you get on a roll with it, I don't know, somehow there's no shortage of people, you know, recommendations really, I guess.  And also galleries, you know, the galleries served a different function I think than they do now.

You know, it was possible to kind of find this whole level of people who were not being served by the galleries at all, the commercial galleries.  Now they do show a lot of emerging artists and there is much more of a ‑‑ less of a gap, I guess, between the commercial world and the museums.  But at the time I was really kind of working in this area of people who were just under that level.  And it was really exciting. 

And also there was White Columns.  Bill Arning was a curator there for years.  I'm trying to think of who my other colleagues were, great colleagues at the New Museum, which was then in Soho.  It was a whole network of people.  And I would go to all those shows of, you know, Thread Waxing Space, which was on Broadway.  You know, it was a really exciting time, exciting time.

>> AF:  I want to shift focus, because you talked a little bit about the politicizing of your curatorial trajectory.  And I guess I'd like to just kind of ‑‑ I mean clearly WACK! was ‑‑ I'd like to talk about gender.  And WACK! was this groundbreaking survey of feminist art that in my mind helped reveal a lot of invisible histories from an incredibly tumultuous yet potent era of art making.

Can you talk a little bit about why you wanted to do that show, why then, and what were some of the road blocks that you kind of experienced along the way?  I mean it's been years now.

>> CB:  It has.  It's kind of amazing.  I mean what's been so interesting is to see the success and the legacy of that exhibition, which opened in 2007, so almost ten years ago, I guess not quite, which is completely still surprising to me, that I'm amazed at the impact that it's had.  Because at the time, you know, I started working on it, I was a curator, I moved back from New York from the Neuberger Museum to be a curator at MoCA here, where I was for ten years, from about '96 to about 2006. 

So when I started thinking about it in the late 1990s, it came from a number of places, both personal and also just in the culture I guess.  On a personal level, I literally was thinking, when I went to MoCA and went to Los Angeles, I somehow knew ‑‑ well, that museum at the time had a history of doing important sort of chapter exhibitions, taking on these major fanatics in art history, or time periods, and really trying to summarize them, do a really deep scholarly look at some of these things. 

So I was thinking, okay, what could be ‑‑ what could I do?  Also it was a bit of a like what am I going to do by the time I'm 40.  I swear, I really thought ‑‑ I was ambitious and somehow on this track.  And I thought by the time I'm 40, I'm going to do a major, huge, great, giant blockbuster of an exhibition.  And I had this idea that feminist art could be that thing, which at the time, this is maybe 1998 or 9, people said that ‑‑ literally one person ‑‑ somebody said career suicide, like really you should think twice about doing this thing, because that will be it.  If you hang your hat with all these women, that's it.

And, you know, I'm a product of women's education.  I went to a women's high school, a women's college.  I didn't ‑‑ something in me just knew that that was not going to be career suicide.  And I really thought ‑‑ I also knew that the only way to make it work was to actually make it a blockbuster, make it so undeniably powerful, scholarly, beautiful, and also just huge, that there would be just no denying it.  I mean I really felt like it had to be a steamroller. 

And it was.  It was probably too big.  It was unwieldy.  When it opened in Los Angeles, it was like an explosion, it was so big.  And you couldn't get through it.  There was too much video.  Like no one could possibly watch all the video that was in it.  But it had the effect of ‑‑ you also just couldn't ignore it.  And so that worked in some way. 

And also actually Helen Molesworth said at the time ‑‑ she came to the opening, because we're old friends.  And she said to me, at the time she said that she was overwhelmed by the feeling of ‑‑ by the sense of the humanity of these women, of dealing ‑‑ because, you know, the women that I was looking at in the show at the point in their careers that they were at, they were very young artists, very many of them, in their late 20s and early 30s.  So the feeling of the humanity of these women, dealing with their relationships, dealing with their lovers, and their ex husbands, and their children, and what to do, and the politics, and the Vietnam War, I mean it was incredibly raw.  So that was part of its power as well.

You know, culturally, the timing of these things is something I've never quite understood, but I've always had a really good instinct about.  I certainly have done shows where the timing was wrong and they just fell on deaf ears and no one cared.  But in the case of WACK!, you know, it was ‑‑ well, it was the Clinton years, you know, and I guess coming of age in the early 1990s, I mean what I've always said about that show is that part of the recuperation of that material came from the other women artists of my generation who were looking at it, you know, Beverly Semmes, and Janine Antoni, and Aki Fujiyoshi, and I mean I could just go on, and Andrea Zittel.  All of these women were looking back at that period, and none of us had actually seen anything in person, because it wasn't in the museums.  It wasn't possible to see it.  So another thing that happened when the show opened was all of us had the reaction of like, there you are seeing that Joan Semmel painting of the Turkish bath in person for the first time.  And it was amazing.  It was just ‑‑ it's hard to understand even today, just eight or ten years later, because now so much of that material is in circulation.  But something in the climate of the art world was ready for it.  And I do think it was partly because of this generation coming out of the '90s wanted to see it.  We wanted to see it.  And so that made the timing right.

>> AF:  Have you experienced any negative repercussions from that exhibition at all?  Have you any backlash, experienced backlash or anything like that?  I mean I'm a professor, so I work with these young people on a regular basis.  And I was just talking to someone yesterday about five years ago every single female in my class said adamantly that she was not a feminist.  Very clear.

>> CB:  Only five years ago.

>> AF:  Yeah.  But now there are a number of women who are embracing it, 18‑ to 20‑year‑old set.

>> CB:  So interesting.

>> AF:  So I wonder if this is part of what's helped kind of cultivate that new approach to thinking about women and their role.

>> CB:  Well, I think partly in the culture, the F word, the feminist label, the feminist word and language, has become more okay, right, I mean when you have like Beyoncé calling herself a feminist.

>> AF:  And then doing a pole dance.

>> CB:  Exactly.  I mean it's certainly not unproblematic.  It's broad.  But I think that probably makes it more okay for your students than you or I doing anything about it, you know?

And I don't know what ‑‑ yeah, I don't really know what to account for that shift.  I mean I do think that the generation prior to the ones that are your students are much more conservative, right, the ones who are now in their late 20s.  I find that in the teaching that I've done that there was a moment, I don't know what you call those people.  They're not quite millennials.  I don't know what they are.  But they are more conservative in every way.  But I do hear, and I do as I lecture and teach ‑‑ it does seem like there's a younger generation coming up, and they see Pussy Riot, and they see these groups of women or single practitioners and authors who kind of cross over into popular culture and into the political realm in these very, very powerful ways.  And, you know, even Hollywood, I don't know, who are those people, you know, Julia Roberts being in those movies where she is like a feminist art historian, or Maggie Gyllenhaal.  There are some pretty powerful voices out there now, and that has to be giving them permission, I think.

>> AF:  Yeah, maybe the viral nature of social media is giving them license as well.  They kind of jump bandwagons.

>> CB:  Yeah, completely.  I mean I do find ‑‑ in a great way.  I think a lot of them don't have any idea what it means, and they certainly don't have any idea of the history that led up to it.  And once they go back and see how kind of gnarly and radical it is, I don't know how they feel about it.

>> AF:  What do you think are some of the ‑‑ I mean I don't know if you saw the latest issue of ARTnews, but it's fully dedicated to women.  And the statistics are grim.  About 20 percent, maybe less than 20 percent of all art galleries in the country are by women, or exhibitions representing women.  Museums are worse, et cetera, et cetera.  What do we do?  How do we change it?  Who has the power?  Do collectors have power?  Do curators have power?  Do the artists have the power?  What do we need to do?  How do we solve this patriarchal ‑‑ go.

>> CB:  Right.  I always wish I had a better ‑‑ I could be more articulate about this answer, because I never am.  I mean just this morning someone was asking me about the Guerrilla Girls and whether or not they were still around, and still relevant, and what not.  And I do think that one of the strategies that they used, that that ARTnews article written by Moira Reilly, who is my colleague and friend, which sort of adds up all the statistics, I still think there is a huge value to that.  Just seeing those statistics, even to those of us who feel like there's been great change and inroads made, those statistics are really sobering.  And certainly I mean do collectors make a difference?  Yes.  I mean I think that the economy, it ‑‑ you know, on some level, so much of it, the economy of it, there's such power in that.  And so one thing when I was Chief Curator at the Museum of Modern Art, which is a big, old, conservative institution, and so often I would think to myself that the patronage, if we can fundamentally change the patronage, and little by little, because that's the only way it happens, I really believe, little by little to change the collecting patterns of these great patrons, these people who are the ones after all who build those collections, in part.  If we can begin to change those collecting patterns, then we can begin to change the market.  And the demand for what they want, and the prices, and all of that, will follow.  And that's really hard, nearly impossible work.  And it's impossibly slow. 

When I was at MoMA, we started something called the Modern Women's Project.  And that was actually started, initiated, by a philanthropist, who is also an artist.  I think that's important.  Her name is Sarah Peter.  She came to the Museum of Modern Art with the idea of doing something for women, very broadly.  She didn't really know what it would be, but she was willing to support something.  And the initiatives that were talked about ranged from healthcare ‑‑ or rather child care for museum employees, to exhibitions, to acquisitions.  And in the end we produced a big book that was about the women artists in the collection. 

But I think maybe the most important thing that her initiative started was an acquisitions committee to buy work by women artists.  And I know from trying to get people to join that committee that it's very hard.  It somehow ‑‑ and I applaud all the women and men who are on that committee, because to put their money behind an initiative that just supports that somehow takes great courage and it's the hardest, at least at the time I felt, it was the hardest money to raise, especially to support purchases from what I think of as this entry level, entry‑to‑the‑market level and timeframe, which is like women of the '70s feminist generation, work made from around 1968 to '78 say, the early '80s. 

That work is still undervalued.  The entry level price is around $250,000 for something major, which in the market is nothing, and should be nothing.  And yet it somehow was so difficult to get those purchases made.  I mean with that committee that's finally what we did start to chip away at.  But I've watched after the WACK! show a lot of those women ‑‑ and other exhibitions, a lot of those women reenter the market.  And it's just fascinating to me.  They enter at a completely different level than their male colleagues, even than their under‑known male colleagues.  So I think the economy of it is what has to be addressed first. 

And that said, any of us with any power at all in these institutions, I mean the other place where there's great power is in the real estate.  That's what I always used to say at MoMA.  You have to at a very basic and kind of primitive level, you have to say, okay, are there as many women on our exhibition schedule as men.  No.  Okay, we've got to do something about that.  Are there as many big shows on the 6th floor of the Museum of Modern Art or on the main spaces at the Hammer Museum?  Is there as much space devoted in an ongoing way to the work of women artists? 

And I would add also artists of color.  Because I don't just think it's about the women.  I think it's about a kind of overall diversity that is lacking in these big institutions.  And you have to just internalize it, and think about it, and work at it all the time.  I mean it's a ‑‑ I sometimes feel like it's generational.  I think, oh, my generation just does that.  We've internalized that.  But, no, not everybody does.  And you have to.  You have to.

>> AF:  So what do you think are some of the most important themes of thinking happening in current contemporary, like the most cutting edge contemporary work right now?  You have a reputation for finding, championing, celebrating artists who kind of sit the margins to a certain degree, who are not always the art market darlings.  Where do you find those artists, and what are you thinking ‑‑ what are the narratives that are kind of emerging or engaging to you?  That's kind of a big question, but what are you thinking about right now I guess is my question?

>> CB:  Yeah, I mean I finally, after lo these many years, finally I guess embraced or been able to admit that that is actually absolutely where I want to be and work and where my comfort zone is and what I'm interested in.  That said, it's not the only kind of artist I work with.  But certainly, you know, over time, those are the kind of artists that I am drawn to.  And I think in some ways that's what led me to the Hammer Museum and to this position, because this museum has made really one of its mandates to look at art history in a different way, and to try to look at those figures who are sometimes considered to be on the margins.

>> AF:  Well, it's interesting too, because with WACK! you took something that's so complex and diverse, I mean, yes, there is like a core idea at the center of all of those kinds of satellite conceptual motivations, right?  And I think that the way that you curated that exhibition really echoed or represented and mirrored that experience of trying to compartmentalize something you can't compartmentalize.  That's kind of the problem with art history to a certain extent.  And so I think it's the curator's burden to try to kind of make sense of these moving targets.

>> CB:  Yeah.  One of the things I'm really interested in is looking at ‑‑ I mean I like to work both historically and I like to work with emerging artists.  And that seems like a kind of obvious thing, perhaps, at first glance, but I actually think in the field, and one of my colleagues sort of identified that and said that to me at some point, I never thought about it, but it's true, there are a handful of us that do that in the world. 

And I find it to be such an interesting way to work, because what it enables you to do is look at history through the lens of the contemporary.  And I think that that for me is how history becomes alive, is ‑‑ and what makes a historical show like I was talking about with the WACK! artists, you know, seeing it through the eyes of a subsequent generation who are looking at that material and engaging it and even reenacting ‑‑ enacting it in some way, not reenacting, but enacting, and enlivening it. 

As an example, one of the shows I'm working on right now is with the Italian artist Marisa Merz, who is the long‑time wife of Mario Merz, her husband, and much more famous husband, who is no longer alive, who was an Arte Povera artist from the 1960s.  And she's 87 or 8 years old and still working and going strong and just kind of this amazing person who, once her husband died, never looked up and is producing ‑‑ still producing incredible work. 

She was the only woman artist in the Arte Povera moment, the only woman who showed in any of those exhibitions in the late '60s and early '70s, almost the only one.  But what has brought her back into focus for me is really thinking about why does work like that look so fresh at this time?  I had known about her work for years.  And then I saw it at the Venice Biennale a couple of years ago where she won the Golden Lion, you know, this award that they give.  But she had an extraordinary installation also at this place called the Piazza Stampalia, which is a museum of decorative arts, where her work was installed through the museum, where her work was the very contemporary work with these other decorative objects from, you know, 17th, 18th, 19th Century.  And the work looked so extraordinarily fresh. 

And I was talking earlier today to the painter Richard Aldrich about this, because I've asked him to write something for the catalog, in part to speak to this, you know, why is this work contemporary now?  And he was talking about that there's something in certain artists that he's drawn to, and I share this, artists like Marisa, where there is utterly a lack of irony.  There's nothing that mediates the work and its relationship to the world.  She isn't looking at any text.  She's not looking at history in any kind of articulated way.  There is something almost naive or, you know, one can pick up a kind of outsider, the practice of outsider artists or something, that there is something on the verge there of being like an outsider artist, I guess.  And I think it has to do with the lack of a mediating thing, of a mediating language, that her language is utterly her own.  It's completely eccentric.  Her relationship to materials is very rich and passionate and almost like a child or something.

So I think that's actually why her work is interesting to a younger generation.  I mean Rich was talking about how 95 percent of the work out there is absolutely terrible.  And artists ‑‑ his students that he comes in contact with, and I totally relate to this, these young students who are in their studio who are so worried about how to make, how to act, how to be an artist, that they're absolutely constipated and frozen.  They can't even ‑‑ they can't produce.  They can't do anything. 

So looking at a practice like this, where she almost comes into her own by the time she's about 80, and is completely free, and I think ‑‑ I think this show will also I hope reevaluate how we even look at Arte Povera.  Because when you go back to that historical moment, in fact what she was doing related to a lot of her male peers, but is completely different.  It has aspects of the domestic, and there are things about maternity, and knitting, and weaving, and all of these things that come from a completely different place than those of the male artist.

>> AF:  Does she talk about it that way?

>> CB:  No.  She does not talk about it.  She doesn't talk about it in any particular way, which is also just fascinating to me.  She lives in a kind of world of her head.  And almost ‑‑ almost isolation.  I mean she's 88; she doesn't go out so much.  But she's an extraordinary ‑‑ she's like from the moon in the best way, you know?  But so that's an example of I guess, you know, I am interested in how a career like that can suddenly come into focus and why does it come into focus at a particular moment?  And that's one kind of work that I'm interested in. 

On the other hand, I have a show that is opening very soon with Mark Bradford, who is not an emerging artist, but he is actually of my generation, but someone who I've known for many years, and actually have had some of the most important discussions to me about painting over the years, as well as feminism, and queerness, and all kinds of other things that Mark thinks about. 

But his show will be a show of new paintings, but also a new audio work which comes out of his thinking about Los Angeles, and growing up here, and coming of age as a gay man in the queer community here, in the drag community here, in the early 1980s, the early years of AIDS, and specifically of an Eddie Murphy concert that he went to, where Eddie Murphy, who was also very young at the time, kind of came out as this incredibly homophobic, or at least language, very homophobic language, and Mark thinking about how when certain hateful language, hateful speech, becomes public and therefore validates a certain way of thinking about women, you know, gayness, queerness, and the body. 

So the sound piece will be extraordinary.  And I hope the two parts of the show will sort of knit back together the two parts of Mark's practice.  So that's been a great experience for me, is to try to, in that case, kind of bring a little bit the part of Mark that has been kind of sidelined by the success of his paintings, the commercial success of his paintings.

So those are some things I'm working on now.  And I've worked on here a biennial of Los Angeles art last year.  So that gave me a chance to kind of still be in the studios of much younger artists, and that was really exciting.  And I love that combination.

>> AF:  You mentioned something about having the most important conversations about painting with Mark Bradford.  Can you talk a little bit about what those were?  What were some of the points that were most engaging for you?  What's important about painting right now?

>> CB:  That's a different question.  I mean with Mark I think it was a discussion about abstraction, and content within abstraction, and how ‑‑ because there is really rich content in Mark's painting.  But his choice to deploy mostly a language of abstraction is a very particular one.  And that's mostly I mean what he and I have talked about over years I guess, as well as feminism and how his own work and his own painting has been impacted by feminism, and coming for him studying at CalArts and the history or legacy of the feminist art program there. 

But what's happening in painting?  You know, I'm a person who ‑‑ I love painting, but I'm really strict with painting somehow.  There is very little of it that I actually really, really engage with.  Because I think there's a lot of terrible painting.  I mean there's plenty of terrible other things too.  But, you know, I thought the Sigmar Polke show a year or so ago at MoMA was extraordinary, partly because what we learned about Sigmar Polke is that being a painter was one thing that he was among many.  And I think that often the most interesting painting practices are that. 

There's a young artist here in Los Angeles named Math Bass who I currently am thinking about.  I just saw a big exhibition of her work at MoMA PS1.  And while not working with abstraction, I mean she does work with images.  It's a kind of interesting ‑‑ she works with almost a sort of archive of these very generic, schematic images that are drawn from both personal imagery, but also like the Internet and different places, and sort of recombining them in a way that almost seems by rote or sort of mechanically generated.  But in fact the paintings are ‑‑ it's this great kind of new form of pop or something, it seems to me, that's quite interesting. 

I'm also really passionate about people like Mary Heilmann, who I just think is one of our greatest painters.  Lari Pittman is a wonderful artist who I'm working with in a few years, a long time Los Angeles artist, and great, great American painter.  I think he's making some of the most complex political, social and extraordinarily painted things of anybody working today.  They're gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous.  And the way that they have a kind of synthetic ‑‑ or the way that they synthesize different languages of art making, you know, the references that come from both himself as a person who comes from Latin American culture in part, from his experiences living a lot in Mexico, from his years in Los Angeles, but then also from his own issues as a very political person.  I just think they're amazing paintings.

>> AF:  I'd agree.  Just one last question.  How much of your practice is kind of intuitive in terms of following your nose with what's important to you, when it's important to you, and how much of it is a really kind of calculated strategy?  Because I mean you do carry this real burden I think as a ‑‑ like you're creating history to a certain extent.  You're deciding what's to come to a certain extent.  What you deem important becomes important, right?  So how do you carry that weight, first of all, and then how do you ‑‑ maybe a question like that can't even be brought into your mind when you're working, but yeah, what do you do with that?  That's a tough one; I'm sorry.

>> CB:  No, it's a great question.  I don't think about it very often, not in any kind of ‑‑ not with any intentionality about not thinking about it.  I just don't think about it very often, also because I think that ‑‑ I guess I think in a very nonhierarchical way.  And I think history is really porous.  And I don't really think I'm making history any more than the person who operates a tiny space on the east side of Los Angeles is making history or whatever.  I really genuinely kind of don't. 

That said, I do understand that I do have a platform of power.  And certainly when I was at a place like the Museum of Modern Art, I was really very aware of it there, partly because of what that collection represents, which is, A, history, a particular history of modernism that happens to have some of the greatest artists of our time in it, as well as many, many artists who are not in it who are also really wonderful. 

So I felt that ‑‑ I felt a certain obligation I guess there to really sort of aggressively or at least in a public and kind of articulated way to carry that torch.  I mean working on an artist like Lygia Clark and making her retrospective there, which came really out of my work on the WACK! show, for me in thinking about who are the women artists out of that exhibition who deserved and needed the full treatment of the big retrospective so we could all really look at the work and think about it.  And she is the most important artist in Brazil post war, I think, bar none, male or female, to my way of thinking.

So she is canonical.  In Brazil she's canonical.  And yet in the context of MoMA, at the time we started working on the show, she was nearly unknown.  So I thought ‑‑ I felt it was really an important gesture for me and my colleague Luis Pérez‑Oramas, who is the Curator of Latin American Art there, to make that gesture.  That was a kind of intervention in a way.  And, again, when we first started talking about it, and even in things like talking to the publisher there about the book and how big should the book be, and how many copies do we order, and all of the diminished expectations that come with women artists.  And the book sold out within a week.  And now everyone kind of, I guess, knows about her.  But, anyway, I felt a real ‑‑ I guess more an ongoing or something I did think about in a very active way there.  And because of the Modern Women's Project, I mean I was constantly aware of sort of pushing up against this extraordinary institution, you know.  And I think if you're a curator there, you have a kind of ‑‑ to me, the most interesting way to work there is to have that relationship with it.  Because you can't ‑‑ you know, that said, you walk through the galleries and there are all those Matisses.  And it's just the most extraordinary place. 

But here what's kind of funny is now to be in a context at the Hammer Museum where, you know, if I said I wanted to do a show of, I don't know who, Jeff Koons, you know, we just wouldn't do it.  Like you just don't do that here.  That's not what we do.

So my idea, what was not canonical at MoMA now is working in LA where, again, the relationship to history is very different and I find quite liberating here.

So I guess that's how ‑‑ I'm always thinking about history.  I'm always thinking about history actually.  I'm always thinking about what's our position in relationship to it.  I'm really thinking now about the history of the White Gallery at UCLA, and what does it mean that the Hammer Museum is 25 years old, and how can we represent the history of Los Angeles, which still is underrepresented in places like the Museum of Modern Art, when in fact it is the place for artistic production in the country right now.  I would argue more than New York.  Not by numbers, but in terms of a sort of energy and critical mass that's here.

So, yeah, I don't know if that answers the question.

>> AF:  Yeah, it does.  Well, thank you so much for speaking with us today.  I really appreciate it.

>> CB:  Thank you, very much.

>> BC:  You are listening to Yale Radio, WYBC.  This is Brainard Carey with The Art World Demystified.   

5 questions (and then some) with Helen Molesworth

Wow, I loved sitting down with this woman. What a gift to have 20 minutes in conversation with someone changing the landscape of art history. Take a listen or read below and let me know what you think. 

Helen Molesworth is the Chief Curator at the Museum of Contemporary Art (MOCA), Los Angeles. From 2010-2014 she was the Barbara Lee Chief Curator at the Institute of Contemporary Art (ICA) Boston, where she assembled one person exhibitions of artists Steve Locke, Catherine Opie, Josiah McElheny, and Amy Sillman, and group exhibitions such as Dance/Draw and This Will Have Been: Art, Love & Politics in the 1980s.

As head of the Department of Modern and Contemporary Art at the Harvard Art Museum, she presented an exhibition of photographs by Moyra Davey and ACT UP NY: Activism, Art, and the AIDS Crisis 1987-1993. From 2002 to 2007 she was the Chief Curator of Exhibitions at the Wexner Center for the Arts where she organized the first US retrospectives of Louise Lawler and Luc Tuymans, as well as Part Object Part Sculpture, which examined the influence of Marcel Duchamp’s erotic objects. While Curator of Contemporary Art at The Baltimore Museum of Art from 2000-2002, she arranged Work Ethic, which traced the problem of artistic labor in post-1960s art.

She is the author of numerous catalogue essays and her writing has appeared in publications such as Artforum, Art Journal, Documents, and October. The recipient of the 2011 Bard Center for Curatorial Studies Award for Curatorial Excellence, she is currently at work on an exhibition on Black Mountain College and a monographic survey of the work of Kerry James Marshall.


   Helen Molesworth, interviewed by Angela Fraleigh


>> BC:  You're listening to Yale radio, WYBC.  This is Brainard Carey with The Art World Demystified.

>> AF:  My name is Angela Fraleigh.  We're talking today with Helen Molesworth, Chief Curator at the Museum of Contemporary Art in Los Angeles.  Thank you so much for being with us today. 

>> HM:  Thank you for having me.

>> AF :  So I like to start these interviews by asking how you found yourself in this field.  You know, what drew you to it in the first place and how did you get where you are?

>> HM:  I ask myself that often as well.  I think like many people who find themselves working in art and culture and ideas, you know, I had ‑‑ I was very lucky.  I grew up in New York City.  I grew up with parents who took me to museums and to cultural events.

I grew up, in other words, with a sense that the public cultural institutions in a city belonged to me.  I don't know how our public school teachers were able to convey that idea to us, but somehow they did.  And I remain actually quite grateful to them in that regard.

I always liked museums.  Even as a kid I liked being in them.  As an adolescent, I often cut school and went to the museum instead.  I read a book I think that a lot of people read of my generation as children of the ‑‑ and I never remember the name, which is an odd Freudian kind of moment ‑‑ called the Mixed Up Files of Mrs. Basil E. Something‑something.  But it's a children's novel or young adult fiction about two kids who decide to run away from their parents and hide in the Metropolitan and spend the night in the museum, evading the guards and doing things that you're not allowed to do, you know, like sleeping in the bed in the period rooms and stuff. 

And that, in some odd way, I mean obviously I didn't know any of this at the time that all those childhood and young adult experiences were happening for me.  But certainly in retrospect I came to see the museum ‑‑ one rule that the museum has is that it is a kind of place where people and ideas hide out from the culture.  You know, it's a bit of a blind, where you can both see the outside world and engage with contemporary ideas and culture, but you're also a little protected from some of the stuff out there that's hard.  And there's a lot out there that's hard, as we know.

Then, of course, I went to school and read a lot of theory and a lot of history about the museum and art and artists that led me to have very different feelings about the museum.  I saw the museum as a place that needed to be challenged, that needed to be open, that was too elitist, too esoteric, too bound up in the past.  So I have the ‑‑ you know, then I developed an adult's relationship to the institution of the museum.  And I think now in middle age, I'm 49, I try to ‑‑ I'm aware that I have these two contradictory impulses in me about the museum.  It's a mausoleum that needs to be ‑‑ just like if I can light a match, let it go, and I feel desperately protective of them as institutions and spaces for the things that they make possible.

>> AF :  That actually leads right into a question that I was going to ask you.  Because I think curatorial practice in a number of ways is a political gesture.  How do you balance that desire to want to expose or reveal dormant narratives that exist without marginalizing further on the one hand some of these narratives that have been left out of history?

>> HM:  Right.

>> AF :  How do you do that?

>> HM:  It's a really interesting question, because I just finished a week ago reinstalling about 10,000, 12,000 square feet of gallery space dedicated to MOCA's permanent collection.  And one of the things I did I think is very typical of people of my generation; you know, tried to use it as an opportunity to show the result of the last twenty to thirty years of scholarship, in which the canon has been opened up, in which art narratives about what happens to post World War II art has, in fact, change demonstrably from the way it was taught to me, which was very much triumph of the New York school, and New York steals the art world. 

AbEx is the beginning.  Now many of us see AbEx as a closure, as actually more connected to Europe and European ideas than to contemporary American ideas, that the bar for contemporary keeps getting moved up, you know.  We moved it to Warhol.  I think the generation underneath me has moved it to 1989, which is a really interesting way of thinking about it. 

But one of the ‑‑ we have ‑‑ MOCA has extraordinary holdings in Rauschenberg, Kline, Rothko.  One could easily do rooms here, a staggering depth of these big, famous, white male names.  But I don't work like that, right?  So my political gestures are like how many women can I get the room, how many people of color can I get the room, how many people who aren't American can I get in the room, how many works on paper, how many nontraditional ‑‑ can I hang Helen Levitt photographs next to a Jackson Pollack?  How can I make all of those little gestures? 

And one of our older trustees said, why aren't you leading with your strength?  Why didn't you put out all the great stuff?  Why didn't you do that?  And I realize that it's true.  We say it isn't true.  We say what we're doing is adding, and we're creating multiple perspectives.  But, in fact, when you get right down to it, if you're going to break open the canon, some of the old favorites aren't going to make it back in right away.

There's only so much room.  And so five or seven Rauschenbergs did get displaced so an Emerson Wolfer and a Ruth Asawa could go on the wall.  And that's real, and that's true, and that's hard for a lot of folks, you know, me included.  Nobody loves a room of Rauschenberg more than me. 

But if you want to tell new and different stories, then those old stories do ‑‑ they've got to shrink a little bit.  It's not perpetual growth.  So changing the canon has effects.  They're real.

>> AF :  How has the response been?  Do you find a public who is really willing to engage with these new ‑‑

>> HM:  I have no idea; it opened a week ago.  Yeah.  It could be a massive failure.  I have no idea.  And there's another half of it coming in a month.  So I really don't know.  I'm very much in process thinking about it for myself.

I mean, yeah, I really can't answer that.

>> AF :  Right, okay.  We'll find out.  I'll call you in a couple months.

So one of the questions I'm most curious about, I had a conversation with Connie Butler yesterday, and Susanne Vielmetter, and the question is who has the power in the art world, and how can we shift things so that it can be a more comprehensive experience where we get to hear all these voices without losing rigor.  And they both suggested that diversifying the collecting patterns of the institutions and also just educating collectors or diversifying collectors in general.

>> HM:  Right.

>> AF :  And that makes sense, right?  Where the money is makes a big difference.  Do you see any other ways to kind of puncture holes in the system?  Clearly you are engaged in a very powerful way.

>> HM:  Yeah.  I mean, I think, yes, you have to ‑‑ I mean I think the ballast of the shift in museums is the collection.  And when I first entered, I went through the academy, thought I was going to be an academic, started teaching and discovered that I did not enjoy the classroom as a site.  I liked museums.

And when I got my first sort of big full‑time museum job, my first big curatorial job, I was amazed by what I realized were two canons.  There was a museum canon, and there was an academic canon.  So in the academic canon, you talk about Vito Aconci, and Chris Burden, and Mierle Ukeles till the cows came home.  I got into the museum, none of that material was in the collection. 

What we talked about in the [inaudible] since, you know, now, you know, 15 years ago, Brice Marden, Agnes Martin, you know.  And I remember thinking when I first got my museum job, God, I can't even imagine who would write a dissertation on Brice Marden.  Who would do that, right?

That's not where ‑‑ they might be nice, they might be even interesting to use Judd's form of aesthetic criteria.  But they couldn't sustain 300 pages of scholarly analysis.  So what ‑‑ so I just became really aware that the only way to change the museum narrative is to change the collection.  And I just started slow and steady.  You just have to buy different kinds of things for the collection.  Then perhaps the trustees and collectors around you are buying.  Because that's how the story gets really rich and complicated.

You mentioned Connie Butler.  I sent Connie an e‑mail last week saying so many of the things that you bought over the years when you were at MOCA make the galleries downstairs so much more interesting, right?  Because she bought Alina Szapocznikow.  She bought Tanaka.  She bought Lee Lozano.  And so there they are.  And they can get up now.  You know, we can put Senga Nengudi on the wall.  We can put Valie Export up on the wall.  But that's a new ‑‑ that's only really within the last 15 years that people ‑‑ that a group of curators have been consistently just like chipping away at what gets put in those collections.

>> AF :  Now, do you run up ‑‑ because it has to be approved by the board.  Who chooses who is on the board?  I know that's kind of maybe a silly question, but how does that get decided?

>> HM:  Well, board members nominate who is the board.  Directors and chief development officers are always looking for interesting people who have the means and the psychological and intellectual capacity to serve on a board.  Serving on a board is a lot of work.  So it's not just money.  I mean you really have to have people who are civically minded, interested in the public sphere, interested in not‑for‑profit management.  It's a whole complicated thing.  But, yeah, and then you educate your board, and your board educates you.

One of the cool things about ‑‑ I've learned so much in the last 15 years from board members.  They work in the for‑profit sector in very powerful and effective ways.  There was much to learn from them.

>> AF :  In terms of business and how ‑‑

>> HM:  Yeah, in terms of business, in terms about how do you have an idea and implement that idea.  If you think structurally, if someone has built a business up from scratch, that person probably has really interesting capacity to think about systems and analysis and structure.  And there might be things to be learned from those structural things into a museum and vice versa.  There are values that the museum is invested in and promotes that board members can learn from.

So I actually see it as a kind of interesting two‑way street sometimes.

>> AF :  So you began your curatorial work when, in the '80s, ' 90s?

>> HM:  God, no.  I would say ‑‑ I mean there's two ways of answering that question.  You know, as a very young person, I went to the Whitney ISP program in curatorial studies.  So I organized my first museum show at the age of 22 in 1989.  But then I ‑‑ I mean I bumped around in graduate school in the New York art world throughout the '90s.

>> AF :  Can you describe that time a little bit for you?  Like who were you hanging around with?  What was it like?

>> HM:  It was great.  I was hanging around with ‑‑ well, my Whitney ISP life turned into making Documents, which is a small magazine that I made with a group of friends, Chris Hoover, who was distributing independent film and video, Margaret Sundell, who is now I think at Creative Time in The Drawing Center, Miwon Kwon, who is at UCLA, and Jim Markovitz, who became a lawyer, left the art world.  And I was really good friends with Mark Dion, and Jason Simon, and Moyra Davey at that point in my life.  I was going to ACT UP demonstrations.  I was going to Colin de Land and Pat Hearn's openings.  You know, that was ‑‑

>> AF :  Were you writing about art?  Were you ever kind of doing criticism, playing that role?

>> HM:  I started writing criticism when I was in ‑‑ well, I mean I was writing criticism in Documents, but I started writing criticism for a commercial publication.  I started writing criticism for Frieze in the mid '90s.  And I wrote reviews of exhibitions and articles on artists.  And that I did when I was in graduate school, because I really needed ‑‑ I needed a different outlet for thinking and writing than my academic outlet. 

I always have had a very diverse practice, I suppose.  I'm not sure that's a word I really like anymore.  But I've always approached my work in a diverse way.  So at the height of my academic training I was writing for an art magazine, because I could write it quickly and there was a deadline, there was a word count, and the whole impetus around what it could do and what kind of access it had was very different than the very solitary labor of writing a dissertation.

>> AF :  What do you think of contemporary criticism today?  That's a broad question.

>> HM:  It is a broad question.  I think that there are some interesting ideas out there.  And I'm very aware that I'm at a point in my own life where there is a generation, you know, of people in their late 20s and early 30s who think very differently than I do.  And I'm incredibly interested in how they approach material, even though I don't often agree.  Because one gets formed, and then it's hard to stay actually ‑‑ I'm open to their ideas, although they don't persuade me that often.  And I fear that that is in fact the definition of old age.

My biggest sadness around contemporary criticism is that very few people know how to write well anymore.  And I mean ‑‑ I don't even mean the people who write jargon, I just mean grammatically correct sentences that cohere into paragraphs that are formed in the service of an idea.

The world has changed.  And a certain quality of writing has been lost.  And it makes me sad.

>> AF :  And through that thinking or ‑‑

>> HM:  Well, I do ‑‑

>> AF :  ‑‑ the rigor of the thought process?

>> HM:  Yes, I do think that ‑‑ yes, I do think that.  Although I am ‑‑ I try not to say that too much, because there is a moment I have of ambivalence around that, that it may be that the form of argumentation that I was taught, and I mean the form of argumentation I was taught from elementary school, where you made an outline, that outline was linear, you diagrammed sentences, there were topic sentences, there was who, what, where, when and why.  That was a report.  You know, that was ‑‑ there was real structure. 

And of course a lot of people aren't taught like that anymore.  People don't ‑‑ like there are new modes of teaching.  And there is this Internet and computer.  And very few people edit pen on paper anymore.  You edit in that horrible Track Changes program, which I use now, but I loathe to this day, because I actually think it ‑‑ it erases and manipulates and it is not as clear who is saying what on page.

And I think ‑‑

>> AF :  It waters things down in a way, you mean?

>> HM:  I don't know if it waters things down, but it resists a certain kind of linearity.  And I don't think linear thought needs to be hierarchical, needs to be limiting.  You can make an argument about nonlinearity using linear thinking.

>> AF :  Do you ‑‑ just to switch tracks a little bit, do you still do studio visits now?

>> HM:  Oh, yeah, sure, of course.

>> AF :  And I imagine you've been in the studios of a lot of LA artists?

>> HM:  I try to.

>> AF :  And you are from New York?

>> HM:  I am.

>> AF :  I guess I'm just curious what you're seeing as some of the more interesting emerging veins of thought happening in those spaces, or what you're most compelled by right now.

>> HM:  Well, it's hard to speak in generalizations about Los Angeles, because it's a city of ten million people.  And it is a city that's geographically really interesting, because it's a city of pockets.

Most people here have much bigger studios than they have in New York.  And because they have bigger studios, their studio life is actually really different, whether they're a very highly productive gallery artist making a ton of work with a lot of people in the studio, or it's someone who is combining a live/work space in a very kind of California inside/outside, live/work lifestyle studio.

>> AF :  Sounds dreamy.

>> HM:  Almost every studio visit you do here, the artist has like a bowl of nuts, a thing of coffee.  There's a hospitality around the studio visit here that I see as very domestic.  It's very generous.  There's a big premium on a certain kind ‑‑ having a certain kind of conversation in the studio.  People are more isolated here, just due to the nature of the way this city functions. You drive from studio to studio.  So the visit is a visit, and it's really beautiful and can often lead to like just fantastically expansive conversations.

>> AF :  But in terms of conceptual ‑‑

>> HM:  The art sale business.  

>> AF :  Yeah.

>> HM:  And you know what, when I'm in New York I'm all business too.  And in New York, I'm a New Yorker.  I'm like, this is great, like what have you got, let me see it, that's interesting, okay, you know, do you have a car service.  I've got [inaudible].  It's really different.

>> AF :  And what about the veins of thought, the conceptual motivations happening currently that you're most intrigued by?

>> HM:  Well, I'm super interested in all these painters who are trying to figure out like screen culture and the relationship between screen culture and this other six hundred year old technology of oil painting.  That is happening on both coasts, so I think that's happening in a lot of places.

I mean I'm interested in what Manny Farber would call termite art.  I'm interested in people who are willing to go down a rabbit hole, a kind of idiosyncratic rabbit hole of their own making.  That's what interests me.

>> AF :  Who are some of the artists that you think of when you say termite art? 

>> HM:  Moyra Davey.  Moyra Davey is a termite artist.  Who are some of the others?  Sadie Benning is a termite artist for me.  I just did a great ‑‑ I just had a really nice studio visit with Nicole Eisenman.  I don't know if she's a termite artist.  I think she's more like a ‑‑ I guess a brilliant satirist.  Lari Pittman is a termite artist.  Lari Pittman is a fantastic termite artist.  He'd make those paintings no matter who came, no matter where they showed.  Like it's his work to do, you know?  Yeah.

>> AF :  Yeah.  Wonderful.  Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about that we haven't covered?

>> HM:  No.  No, this is great.

>> AF :  Thank you so much for being with us.

>> HM:  Thank you.

>> AF :  I really appreciate it.  It was wonderful.

>> HM:  It's flattering that you would like to listen to me talk.

>> BC :  You're listening to Yale Radio, WYBC.  This is Brainard Carey with The Art World Demystified. 

5 questions (and then some) with Susanne Vielmetter

I've been having such an incredible time sitting down with some of my favorite people in the arts for Yale University Radio.  I learned so much from this interview with Susanne Vielmetter-- ideas on how to shift gender and race disparity in the field, about the art market, about the stresses of gallery life and, the number one factor that she believes is the key to an artists success.  There are so many quotable moments. Click on the link or browse the transcribed text below. Some of my favorite quotes are towards the bottom and in bold.

Big thanks to Susanne for taking the time to chat with me and to Brainard Carey for the opportunity to host the program.

Susanne Vielmetter was born in Cologne, Germany and moved to Los Angeles in 1990. She founded her gallery, Susanne Vielmetter Los Angeles Projects, in 2000 to show artists of diverse backgrounds with a focus on idea-based work. From the beginning, the gallery’s program aimed to represent an equal number of male and female artists.

Over the years, the gallery relocated to progressively larger spaces, arriving in its current space at 6006 Washington Boulevard in Culver City in 2010. The gallery featured the first west coast solo exhibitions of artists such as Edgar Arceneaux, Rodney McMillian, Mark Bradford, Jutta Koether, Wangechi Mutu, Mickalene Thomas, Amy Sillman, Ruben Ochoa, and Sadie Benning

This coming year, the gallery will present solo exhibition by William Pope L. and by Mary Kelly. Artists of the gallery are regularly included in national and international Biennials, such as Charles Gaines and Wangechi Mutu in the 2015 Venice Biennale, My Barbarian, Karl Haendel, Shana Lutker and Dave McKenzie in the 2014 Whitney Biennial; and Amy Sillman. Nicole Eisenman and Sadie Benning in the 2013 Carnegie International.

The gallery has been instrumental in developing the careers of Nicole Eisenman, Charles Gaines, Wangechi Mutu, Karl Haendel, Rodney McMillian, Monique Van Genderen and Andrea Bowers to their current level of international importance.


Interviewed by Angela Fraleigh

>> AF:  I’m here today talking with Susanne Vielmetter, gallerist and owner of Susanne Vielmetter Los Angeles Projects. Thank you for being with us today.

>>  SV:  Thank you for having me.

>> AF:  So I guess I wanted to just start by asking you a little bit about your personal path, how you came to the art world.  Did you want to be an artist as a kid?  Were your parents involved in the arts?  How did you get interested in this work? 

>> SV:  I have always been interested in art pretty much as long as I can remember, from, you know, doodling on paper when I was very little.  There were two interests in my life actually.  One was art, visual art, and the other one was language.  So—and it took me a long time to find a profession where I could—where I could express the love for 2 both.

So when I went to college I studied art and German language and literature, but I didn’t have—I didn’t have a profession in mind where those two things could kind of be possibly useful.  So kind of directing my interest towards the gallery world or gallery work, that only happened kind of more by accident.  When we came to Los Angeles, my husband and I, I was trying to figure out what to do and where to go, and I did an internship, and it was in a contemporary art gallery.  And I knew within a week, wow.

>> AF:  Oh, really?  What gallery was that, do you mind me asking?

>>  SV:  It was a very local gallery in Los Angeles.  It was called New Space.  And I ended up working there for seven years.

>> AF:  So I imagine you changed from intern to something else.

>> SV:  Yes, the director.

>> AF:  All the way up to director?

>>  SV:  Yes.

>> AF:  In seven years.

>> SV:  Yeah.  Well, sooner, you know.  I was only an intern for I think three months.

>> AF:  Okay.  And they realized you were valuable to them in many other ways? 

>> SV:  Yeah.  Yeah.

>> AF:  So what was it about that job that you just knew that this is maybe a path for you?

>> SV:  Well, the amazing thing about it was that I was surrounded by art all day long.  Then I had a chance to talk to the artists and kind of learn about the—how the art works came about.  But then the more important—or the more important requirement was to translate this visual event into words, you know, to kind of mediate the visual experience to the curator or to the collector or to the critic.  And, you know, in the beginning that was very simple, you answered questions, and then more and more I found that—I truly found that I kind of found my calling, that I was helpful in, you know, sometimes there is a viewer comes in the gallery and there might be resistance.  Or there might be non-understanding.  Or there might be, well, you know, I don’t know this, I have never seen something like this, and therefore I do not want to know more. Or this is intimidating, or this I don’t like, or it offends me.  And so I saw that—I found it very satisfying that you could start a conversation in a context like this, and you could actually open doors that maybe before the conversation were closed.

>> AF:  It’s interesting because you talked about languages from the very beginning.  And you in this context you served almost like a translator to a certain extent. You’re educating.

>>  SV:  Exactly.

>> AF:  Yeah, interesting.

>> SV:  And that’s our—not that I would say that everything that’s happening in an artwork can be translated and remains a visual event, but sometimes language can help at least providing that first anxiety—you know, taking away that first anxiety, or whatever barriers there might be to ease into this kind of enjoying this visual experience.

Sometimes it’s just providing background information.

And very often what I learned over the years, as I was dealing more, you know, with the viewer and that experience of taking in this visual information, it became more and more important to me what the social context was around the making of the work, around the maker of the work, or how it was being perceived at different times in different contexts.  There’s a whole social, very complex social reality around what happens when a viewer perceives a work of art, and that became more and more interesting to me over the years.

>> AF:  I want to circle back around to how you went from working at a gallery to owning your own gallery.  But I do want to kind of expand on this idea a little bit more about sometimes it’s just fleshing out that background narrative or the kind of contextual narrative for the artist—what that work is coming out of, and you’re explaining that for a viewer.  Do you think that that’s one of their most intriguing aspects—what they come to the work wondering about the most, or that’s something you feel is part of your vision and for your program? 

>> SV:  Well, I feel like I’m working for my artist.  So the first objective is to make—to make this interaction between the viewer and the artwork as easy or as rich an experience as possible.  So what I do I see strictly as a service that I provide to my artists.  And in a conversation, I try to feel what is most helpful, what information is most helpful.

Some viewers might not want to know what the artist meant by doing this.  Or they might not want to know who the artist even is.  Some other people might find this incredibly interesting.  And, you know, there’s a—you know, a person might come to

the gallery and they are looking for this uplifting painting that they want to hang in their living room and they want to look every day at.  And that’s a different—that requires a different conversation than let’s say if a curator comes in and wants to exam the political meaning of a certain artist’s work within a certain community or at a certain moment in time.  So these people require different conversations.  And so I feel like my role is to provide them with whatever information it is that they need.

>> AF:  Right.

>> SV:  So, for instance, if a collector wants to—looks for a red painting over like their couch, they might not be interested in, you know, knowing the entire context, political context, of this particular piece.

>> AF:  Right.  Right.  And how do you determine what—because oftentimes I imagine people don’t even know why they want something or what they want.  So how do you—I imagine there’s a series of probing questions or, you know—or maybe even just intuition that is part of this whole dance that happens between, gallerist and collector.

>> SV:  Yeah.

>> AF:  Or curator or—

>> SV:  The more you have these conversations, the more experience you get with it, and the more you’ll find out where people—what angle they are coming from.  I feel, you know, it’s a—listening skills are good skills to have in that context.  So it’s good to listen and find out where somebody is coming from.  But then of course you have it in your power to also shape the conversation or maybe point out certain things.  In general I am trying to be as respectful as I can towards whatever motive somebody has.  Sometimes people want to have the painting that matches their couch.  I never look down on that.  You know, that’s a valid, I feel, aesthetic concern.  Sometimes a collector might want to have that one signature masterwork, often artists that they already have collected in depth, and they want to find that particular important piece.

It’s—you know, people come from very different angles.  And I try not to judge them as to, you know, sometimes there is a tendency to value one over the other.  And I don’t do that.  I don’t want the gallery to be an intimidating or judgmental experience.

>> AF:  Well, that leads me to another question.  How do you bring people in?  How do you attract people in a way that maybe filters out into different audiences?  Or how do you find people to come and support these artists?

>> SV:  I found over the years the really— the fundamentally important strategy or strategies is to be—to provide them with an experience that they like, to make that experience of coming to the gallery a great one, not just, oh, yeah, we went to this gallery and that was kind of nice; to make it truly great.

>> AF:  Um-hmm.

>> SV:  And, well, you do that first, I feel, the most important thing is that you’re respectful, but then that you also give an opportunity to learn something that they might find incredibly interesting.  Or they look at this painting, then they know a few things about how this painting came about, or what this painting means in a certain context.  And all of a sudden that kind of nice experience turns into, wow, this is so amazing, or this is so interesting to know, or—and that affects people emotionally.  And, you know, I feel looking at art is partially also a nonverbal emotional experience.

>> AF:  What role are art fairs playing for you now?  I know that it’s changed the landscape for a lot of galleries, and it becomes—well, I don’t need to tell you.

>> SV:  Yeah.

>> AF:  What’s your view on that?  What are the benefits and what are the challenges for you from your point of view?

>> SV:  Yeah, the art fairs are—well, I opened a gallery in 2000, and they were important then. But they have become even more important since.  When I opened the gallery, I always thought that they were incredibly important.  And I know that at the time I—there were galleries that had different opinions about them, and they didn’t like them, and they didn’t want to do them.  And I can say in retrospect that the galleries who didn’t do them have ceased to have an international presence.

I feel like the art fairs fulfill a very important function to make galleries visible internationally.  And as with any business—unless you sell a product that you can survive off by selling it to a very local community, you know, a baker or—you probably don’t have that problem.  But if you’re reaching for an international audience, which as an important gallery you have to, then you have to do art fairs.

And an art fair is this very concentrated opportunity for the collectors, but also more and more for the curators and for the critics to travel to one place and do basically the concentrated super information overkill, you know, in three or four days.  You can speak to all the divas.  You can see a very good representation of a wide range of artists that you might be interested in.  And you have all of this happening in a very short amount of time in one place.

Particularly for the curators, I feel the curators don’t have much time and usually they don’t have the biggest travel budgets either.  So for a curator to travel to several cities, international cities, to meet with galleries and artists and to see current work, it would require a lot of time and a lot of money.

If they go to an art fair, they can see a lot of information all right there.  And so for us, it’s almost like going to an art fair.  It’s not only for the sales, it’s also to connect with the curators.  If I do a fair in New York, I know that a very good range of very important New York curators will come and see me.  And it might take years for them to see them here at the gallery, because we are in Los Angeles.

>> AF:  Right. As of this recording, the latest Art News, the issue of Art News, is dedicated to strictly female artists. And you have a roster of a lot of very strong female painters and artists.  I guess I wanted to know from your point of view, what’s been your experience in terms of gender as both a gallerist and for your artists?  Do you see disparities and, if so, where and how?  Let’s just talk about that a little bit.

>> SV:  Um-hmm.  It’s a very important issue, and it has been extremely important to me from the moment I opened the gallery. And it’s—sadly, the art world—one always thinks that the art world is this very progressive, evolved place.  And it’s absolutely not.  It’s shocking to me that female galleries—the biggest problem is in the fact that female artists are not represented equally, in equal numbers, as their male counterparts in the galleries.  And that I think is at the very core of the problem.  Most galleries—and the sad part is the larger a gallery very often gets, the more the percentage of female artists that they represent shrinks.

Most galleries have a huge disparity between the female and male artists in their program.  And I think the average—the artist Micol Hebron did the Gallery Tally project.  I think the average is now around percent of female versus male artists that are being represented by galleries.

What that means is—what people I think don’t understand enough is that this has a direct influence and consequence to the art that we see later on in museums.  I mean the representation of female artists in museums is not equal.  I mean it’s far from equal.

And with the current situation of underrepresentation in the market, I’m afraid that this will translate into years and years to come in the museums.  Galleries and museums are connected.  And what I think is very important to understand is that in the United States I feel the government or the society doesn’t have written in their tax code that culture is—culture is being supported by the taxpayer.  The cultural production in this country is I would say to 90 percent supported through the market.  That’s why what galleries do is extremely important.  It is much more important than what galleries do in Europe, because in Europe an artist can exist and can have a studio practice and—supported by government grants.  That’s not the case here.  If an artist wants to be successful, and if they want to support a full-time studio practice, they need to be active in the market.  And galleries are the gate to the market.  So once they show in galleries and once the work enters the market, it is then being perceived by museums.

And so the galleries and the museums in the market, they’re all connected with each other.  So if female galleries [sic] aren’t represented equally in the galleries, they will most likely not be represented equally in the museums.  And I have this conversation a lot.  I have it particularly with my collectors.  And it doesn’t always put me in the easiest position, as you can imagine.

Very often what I hear back from collectors is, well, we are only interested in the quality of the work.  We don’t care whether it’s being made by a man or by a woman artist.  Very often when you address the issue of male versus female artists in the galleries program, the next thing you hear is the quality argument.  And that in itself is of course a huge problem, because inadvertently—inadvertently the sub-message that’s being delivered here is that somehow female artists aren’t as good as the male artists.  And that is something that’s almost impossible—I find it very difficult to root out.  Then, you know, you get:  Why should we care about these issues; shouldn’t we just look at the work?  And this is something that I mentioned earlier.  The longer I have been involved in the art world, the less it’s possible for me to just look at the work.  It’s an old-fashioned and outdated way of looking at aesthetic things.  A work doesn’t just exist in a bubble.

>> AF:  Right.

>> SV:  There’s always a social context around it.  I’m not judgmental.  You know, if somebody wants to ignore the social context and simply enjoy the work, I’m fine with that; that’s cool.  It’s just that doesn’t reflect reality.  And I strongly encourage collectors that come to this gallery to actually pay attention to the social context.  And if you do that, then you—cannot ignore that the art that you see in the museum, that our kids see, that everybody sees at the museum, is the expression of a tiny subgroup of our culture.  Why—I think the question has to stop being—I get a lot of questions in that regard.

Well, you know, you show this, you know, politically diverse program, or racially diverse, or female artists, and I—you know, I don’t mind talking about it.  But I think where we need to graduate to is that the question is actually being posed, why would you show 80 percent works by white male artists?  Or why you would show—why is 90 percent of your stable from one cultural subgroup?  Is there any personal—you know, why do you do that?

That again leads to the even deeper lying question.  There is of course a reason for that.  And the reason is that 90 -- I would say 90 percent of all collectors who can afford to collect art are from a subgroup.  It’s not a diverse group.  The collector community is not a diverse group.  And the percentage of independently wealthy female collectors, or even better, female collectors that are professionally so successful that they have enough disposable income to become a really serious collector, that percentage is still minute.

>> AF:  Okay.  So in your opinion is that where a huge shift could take place?

>> SV:  Yes

>> AF:  If the collector base expanded to include a more diverse group of people?

>> SV:  Yes.  That’s actually the only way I think it can happen.

If—you need—of course, you know, you need a diverse group amongst the critics, amongst the galleries, very important amongst the selection committees for art fairs.  I cannot tell you how many screaming fits I’ve had about that.  Curators, museum directors, we have already I think most museum—the percentage of female museum curators I think is pretty enormous.  The percentage of female museum directors is not so enormous.  Things are changing in that realm.  Until the collector base is truly 50/50 percent male/female, I 17 think we’re going to have to wait for a while for that to happen.  And so, you know, very often that leads to all kinds of problematic questions that, you know, I don’t want to imply that the cultural background or the gender of a collector naturally means that that collector then, you know—you know.

>> AF:  Right, yeah.

>> SV:  But as human beings, we have this tendency that we relate emotionally fastest and best—if we don’t reflect about it actively, we relate to what we know or where we come from.  So my approach on this is there’s nothing wrong with that.  It’s a pleasurable relating to.  This is the basis of my business.  You know, I don’t want to judge about it or, you know, I don’t have a problem with it.  But sometimes I try to explain to a collector, once you raise this kind of emotional relating business that’s going on when you look at this work, once you raise that to a conscious level, you can start reflecting about it, and you can actually start wondering why am I relating to this, but not to this?  And once you’re ready to do that, then you can maybe sometimes also influence this relating, this emotional relating to a visual something that you see.

And I think that’s where people can make more like political decisions, or more kind of thought-through decisions when they collect.

>> AF:  I guess that brings me to the question of pricing work too, that seems like that could be some tricky territory, and what you think creates value in an artwork.  I mean, how do you go about assigning value to something that you might have a value here, the market has had a different one?  Or, you know, the art world has been described—or the art market I should say has been described as the wild west in a lot of ways.  It’s unregulated, the government is not involved, there’s no regulation in terms of equanimity, et cetera, et cetera.  So how do you as a business person in this wild west field, how to you determine that value?

>> SV:  I think what people need to understand about value is other than probably the value of food if you’re on an island and you’re starving, there is no objective—objectiveness to value.  Value is something that we make up.

>> AF:  Right.

>> SV:  As an agreement in a social situation.  There is no inherent value in gold.

>> AF:  Right.

>> SV:  Nor in money, nor in any artwork. It’s usually something that a group—you would hope experts—agree on in a kind of mutual discussion and in the market.

So if you—and the tricky thing about selling art is you have a set of market rules that the art world doesn’t invent, and I think that are just inherent in the market.  And I think it’s naive to think that you could easily change them.  They cannot be changed.  So, for instance, a very simple market rule is if something is very sparse and a lot of people want it, the price goes up.  I have this basic market 101 discussion with all my artists at some point, because sometimes artists are of the opinion if it doesn’t sell, maybe we need to raise the price.  But that would go against this rule that if nobody wants it, then that’s not a good idea to then raise the prices, in most market scenarios.  You raise the prices when the demand goes up, not the other way around. 

>> AF:  Is that then independent of things like having a museum exhibition, or this award, or that fellowship?  Do see those things as separate or do you see them factoring in as well?

>> SV:  Yeah.  No, of course, all of these things factor in.  So what—when you start building the career for an artist, you first want to—you know, you put the show out there, and you see what the response is.  And then you want to increase the prices as the demand increases.  And every time a museum comes in, or you get a good review, or the artist gets a museum show, all of these things will of course accelerate this process and the prices go up.

Very often the way things work now is there is excitement about a lot of artists that are fresh out of school, and the work is still very inexpensive.  There’s a lot of collectors out there who look at it from an investment point of view.  And I think that’s completely legitimate.

And very often things can then happen very fast.  The prices go up very fast, until the next young hot artist comes along. So what I feel artists—is helpful for artists to understand is it hardly ever happens that an artist’s career or the price structure of their work goes up in this very smooth and steady curve, up and up and up.  Most—for most careers, you have maybe a somewhat steep beginning, then it levels out a bit.  Then it goes maybe up.  Maybe, you know, you get another show, you get a great review, it goes up. It may level out.  Maybe you will have a dip for a while.  Then it might go up.  So it’s this kind of curvy thing.  And hopefully in the long run, you would think that this curvy thing has an upward momentum.  But that’s not always happening.

What is changing in comparison to the ‘80s, in the ‘80s all of this was going very slow.  Or even before the ‘80s, all of this was happening relatively slow.  Now because the information is exchanged so fast, people can see an image on Twitter and make the decision to buy it in a fraction of a second.  All of this kind of waviness is like a frantic Twitter, very often.

So in the bigger picture, I think the biggest problem, to tie into your previous question, is that the works by female artists are usually in a lower— on a lower price level than the works by male artists in the biggest picture.

>> AF:  And you’re going back to that saying because there’s less demand?

>> SV:  There’s less demand, and then there’s more often the perception that somehow they’re not as good, or that the career—or that the investment is kind of not as worthy.

And I have to say, you know, sometimes the—particularly artists from the older generation, sometimes they—they have this deep distrust of the whole system, of the market.  They don’t like to kind of see themselves in a position where they want to kind of work with the market.  Sometimes they have a kind of deep resentment against it.  Very often they’ve had years and years where nothing sold, so they’ve come to completely distrust the market.  So of course my goal is to—you know, I want—I want my female artists to be as expensive as, you know, the male artists.  And that’s what I’m pushing for.  And it’s more challenging.

On the other hand, I also feel it’s probably the most under-recognized market yet.  I think there’s a huge potential there.

>> AF:  Opportunity.

>> SV:  And there are people out there who see this and agree with me.

>> AF:  How do you—how do you improve the career for your artists?  How do you best support them?  So obviously you believe in them entirely.

>> SV:  Yes.

>> AF:  And you’re supporting them and wanting them to make the best work they can make, and you’re also trying to get their work, I assume, into museum exhibitions, into the right collections, not just to any collector.

>> SV:  Um-hmm.

>> AF:  What’s your strategy for improving the career arc of these really strong, powerful female artists?  Or all of your artists?  I shouldn’t just single them out.

>> SV:  Yeah.  Well, I have about 50/50 between male and female artists.  I think if I wanted to say like one strategy, then it’s probably the strategy of flexibility and figuring out—because the career is a dynamic thing.  As I pointed out, it’s this kind of wavy, curvy thing.  What would like to do is in the long run provide a financially stable situation for them so that they can focus on their work, and so that the work is really the center of their focus, and they don’t have to constantly worry about the sales and will I be able to pay my studio rent and all of those things; and then beyond that, of course, when they get older, to have wealth, to build wealth.  And that could mean very different things for different artists at different times.  Sometimes when the career hits a plateau, selling to anybody might be the right strategy, because you just need to get sales going.  Sometimes selling might be not the strategy at all.  If we have the feeling that the market has overheated, and there’s too much work out there, maybe now is the time to actually go back and not schedule any shows, go back in the studio and really look and think about what strategic move to do next.

In the bigger picture, you know, we are always interested in having the dialogue with the museums and with the critics.  Sales are important to keep the whole thing going.  But if I can choose, you know, I’m always on the side of the museums and the critics, if it’s possible for the artist to have a sustainable career. Collectors, you know, there are some very, very powerful and very knowledgeable collectors.  And so of course it’s important to place artists with those collections.  But I’m of the opinion like in—the gallery is a business.  What I want my artists to understand is that running their studio is also a business.  And I know, and this is a fact, it would be interesting to do a study about that, to see how the most successful artists today run their gallery. I’d say almost all of them know how to run a small business, especially when you get to the point that you have some sort of production.  You need to have—you need to know how to manage people, you need to be organized, you need to have—know where your money is.  You have to have good basic business skills.  So that’s an important part.

The other important part is to look at everything that happens in your career as an opportunity.  A sold-out show obviously is an opportunity.  Now you have cash.  You can invest into your practice.  You can maybe get a bigger studio, get more help, increase your production.

A show where nothing sells can also be an opportunity.  It just depends on how you look at it.

It can be that opportunity to actually put that body of work aside and wait until that amazing museum show comes along where you can show it and you don’t have to worry, oh, my god, do I have to call twenty collectors and worry about getting my work back.

Or it maybe your retirement insurance.  It may be that body of work that once, you know, you do have the retrospective that is then available, and instead of selling it now for ten thousand dollars each painting, you can sell it then for a million for each painting.

Or a show where you received a harsh review, it might be this opportunity to kind of—for introspection, for reevaluation of what you’re doing.

Usually when artists are very successful, there’s a lot of pressure to continue exactly what you’re doing to get there.  There’s a lot pressure to produce your brand.

I feel with—and this is the advice that I give to all of my artists that I’m showing.  I don’t think anything of brands.  I think a career can only make it in the long run if you are constantly questioning your practice and if you’re open to change and to reinventing yourself and to keep your practice meaningful and interesting.  So if you have a slow point in your career, that’s the time where you actually can take risks and do experiments, and maybe do something that nobody likes but it’s not that big of a deal.  If you do that when you are at the top of your game and you have a waiting list of 200 collectors who all want the same thing, try taking a risk then and deal with the fall-out of that.  If you then decide, oh, I’m going to do something completely different.  I used to be a painter, now I do ceramics.  And all of a sudden you don’t sell anything.  You go from there to 27 there.  It can have the most devastating emotional effects.  So not that I am, you know, dispensing advice all that much.  I mean I talk to my artists if they want.  If they have questions, and they come to me, then I try to have these conversations where we, you know, we look at the career as this dynamic thing and to find strategy how to deal with each situation and see the best in it and kind of use that as an opportunity.

>> AF:  I think you kind of answered it, but that was going to be my next question.  Your most successful artists, what are they doing besides making amazing work?  What are they doing that’s really helping be a business partner to you in some respects, beyond managing their own studio or their own people, the people that are helping them out in the studio?

>> SV:  Yeah.

>> AF:  What are they doing?  Does it have to do with social kind of networking?

>> SV:  Yes.  Yes.  I would say the most crucial, absolutely essential thing is they put their work at the center of their being.  The most successful artists are the ones that are fully invested in their work.  The work is not a means to kind of be popular in the art world or to make money or to feel good about yourself.  The work is the center of your life.  And that’s the most important thing.  And I think that’s—that’s for me the one distinguishing element between somebody who is really—is going to go places with what they do and somebody who might not.

Beyond that, it is good to have social skills and to be out there and networking.  It’s great if you know how to run your best business.  It will have an effect on the degree of your success.  Will it make you a good artist?  No.  And I think an artist who is relevant for our time, it’s wonderful if they have these skills, but it does not—it doesn’t have anything to do with the quality of what they’re having to say.

>> AF:  Or whether they rise to the top?

>> SV:  Whether they rise to the top, it could very much have something to do with it.  Well, that’s me, you know.  I don’t think that all artists who rise to the top are the best artists.

>> AF:  Right.  Of course.

>> SV:  But in—you know, the artists that are the most known and the most successful in this— in this art—in this thing that we call art world, I would say in order to make it to the very top, yeah, you should have good small business skills and you should have—you should be able to build a social network.  It’s very, very helpful.

>> AF:  Yeah.  I wanted to ask you one more question, and then ask you if you have any things that you want to talk about.  But I guess I wanted to briefly talk about the economic downturn in 2008 and how—I don’t really have a sense of the LA, the west coast, gallery situation.  I know that a number of really wonderful galleries in New York had to close up shop as a result.

>> SV:  Yeah.

>> AF:  And even today, hearing some of the costs associated with running a gallery, I spoke with one gallerist who has to sell two hundred thousand dollars worth of art every month just to kind of stay

afloat, which maybe that isn’t phenomenal outrageous numbers to someone who’s been in business, but to me that seems like a lot of pressure.  And I guess I’m curious, how did you survive that kind of bubble burst?  Some people say we’re in a new bubble, and that one is going to burst too.  So what are some strategies, and or how did you kind of maneuver 30 through that?

>> SV:  I can very much relate to that.  I have to sell about $300,000 a month to make it.  And that’s pre my salary. I have almost ten people now full-time.  You know, I pay benefits to them.  And I have, you know, thirty artists, so it becomes a big ship, so to speak.  And for me the only way—I’m not—I don’t have any backing or any other resources that I could fall back on if this doesn’t work.  So, yeah, it’s—yeah, if it goes well, it’s the best thing in your life.  If it doesn’t go well, it turns into—I don’t know if somebody from outside of the business can understand what you go through if it doesn’t go well.  Because it’s not just—I wish it was just me.

>> AF:  Right.

>> SV:  It’s basically this—it’s this, you know, you’re responsible for your employees, you’re responsible for those artists.  And then, you know, they have families.  There’s whole lives that are attached to it.  And so if you have the feeling that you can’t make your monthly sales quota, it’s—I think only probably other gallerists can understand, you know.  But it’s—it’s a lot of stress.

>> AF:  Yeah.

>> SV:  It’s emotional, and it’s—it’s very, very stressful.  So in 2008 -- I have always been—erred on the conservative side, especially since I started the gallery without backers.  I built it from very, very modest, very small beginnings.  So in the beginning I couldn’t afford an employee, so I did everything, you know.  I’m pretty good with a hammer.  I answered the phone and the e-mails.  I went to the copy store every morning to make my copies because I couldn’t afford a copier.  And then the good thing about that is just that you grow it kind of organically, you know.  So it has—my business has a pretty solid foundation.  But, I mean, if I didn’t sell for probably—if I didn’t have sales for six months, that would be it.  So it is kind of a balancing act.  And in 2008, the recession hit LA later than it did in New York.  I remember, we were all—I was like in excellent spirits.  I was like, oh, yeah, that’s all going to happen in New York, and New York galleries with their outsized spaces, kind serves them right.  I was not that worried.  And then it hit LA in the fall of 2008.

And what I did is in early 2009, at the time I was in a space that was about a quarter of the size of this one, and I had six more years on that lease, locked in, with another option, so there was no need for me to do anything, especially no need to expand.  But in early 2009, opportunities, real estate opportunities, were coming up.  So I—you know, I had a little bit of savings.  So I thought if I ever want to have the space that I really want, that I always wanted, and would have—in 2008 I wouldn’t have had a bloody chance to get a lease like this.  So in early 2009 I signed the lease for this space.  And I like crazily expanded.  And the thing is when you don’t have to do anything, you know, you become a good negotiator, because, you know, I could—every sane person told me, you should not expand, you should keep what you have, be a reasonable girl, and stay where you are.  But then I looked at the space.  This was a—

>> AF:  And you just knew you had to do this?

>> SV:  I thought once the economy recovers, it will be impossible for me to compete with the next tier of galleries.  I looked around and, boy, it was like how am I going to even be visible in the shadow of this?

You know, so, yeah, so that’s what I did.  But it comes at a price.  You know, I don’t think I had a really good night’s sleep for a year after I did that.  But then, you know, it always in the end—

>> AF:  With greater risks come greater rewards.

>> SV:  Yes.  I can say in retrospect it was the absolute right thing to do.  It worked out.  Of course, if I had failed I would say in retrospect it was the absolute wrong thing to do.  But it worked out in this case.

>> AF:  Well, thank you so much.  It’s been so wonderful speaking with you.

>> SV:  All right.  You’re welcome.

>> BC:  You’re listening to Yale radio, WYBC.

This is Brainard Carey for The Art World Demystified

To hear more great interviews on Yale University Radio click here:

5 questions (and then some) with Carla Camacho for Yale University Radio

I recently sat down with Carla Camacho, partner at Lehman Maupin,  to discuss her path through the art market, as well as some hot topics like art flipping and art fairs. 

Listen Here:

Interview with Carla Camacho


Carla Camacho is a Partner at Lehmann Maupin Gallery, where she has worked for nine years of her now almost twenty-year gallery career. Prior to making Partner, Camacho acted as director of sales at the gallery for seven years. Since her arrival, she has helped guide the team through the gallery’s expansion to the Lower East Side in 2007 and in Hong Kong in 2013. She began her career at the landmark Leo Castelli Graphics, a gallery devoted to prints and photographs, before moving on to work for New York-based dealers, Cheim & Read. A required visual arts class during her undergraduate degree at Marymount Manhattan College sparked her initial interest in contemporary art. Carla Camacho graduated from the Pratt Institute in Brooklyn, New York, with a Masters degree in art history and a focus in conservation.

>> AF:  This is Angela Fraleigh for The Art World Demystified.  Today we're talking with Carla Camacho about her role as partner and director of sales at Lehmann Maupin Gallery.  Thank you for being with us today.

>> CC:  Thank you, Angie.  It's my pleasure.

>> AF:  I guess what I'd like to do is begin with your beginnings.  So what was it that first interested you in working in the arts?  How did you first become interested in this field?

>> CC:  For me it started in undergraduate school.  I went to school here in the city, Marymount Manhattan College.  And I had really no previous exposure to contemporary art.  But as part of a requirement, I took a visual arts class, and we went around to the galleries.  And I was just really blown away by what I saw, in particular installation art I remember.  And one of the ‑‑ the artists that I really remembered that struck me was xxx Ahmet Mesajay who had a show at the xxx Caposium Gallery, and I just thought that this was a world that I wanted to be a part of.  So I started interning.  And I interned at Leo Costelli Graphics, and at White Columns.  And from there I started working in galleries.  I worked at Cheim and Read, Paul Morris Gallery, and ultimately was here at Lehmann Maupin Gallery.

>> AF:  Wow, great.  And so how many years between that time ‑‑ or like working in all those galleries, if you don't mind me asking?

>>  CC:  Well, I started as an intern in 1996. So you do the math.

>> AF:  Great.

>> CC:  Aging myself here.

>> AF:  And so where did you say you went to undergrad?

>> CC:  Marymount Manhattan College.

>> AF:  Okay.  And was your art major in art? art history?

>> CC:  So I switched.  It was International Relations to begin with, and then I switched to Art History.  And then I took a year‑and‑a‑half off before I went to grad school at Pratt and got a Master of Science in Art History there.

>> AF:  Okay.  And what was your focus in art history?

>> CC:  Well, at that point I really focused on the contemporary art, and I wrote my thesis on Ed Ruscha.

>> AF:  Oh, interesting.  So what was it about his work that drew you?

>> CC:  I was really interested in his artist books.

>> AF:  Okay.

>> CC:  And, you know, for me the thing that I've always found most interesting in art are, you know, work that is beyond the canvas and beyond, you know, a sculpture that goes on the table, because that's what I grew up thinking what art was.  So I was, really early on, fascinated by work that just went beyond those borders.

>> AF:  Um‑hmm.  Have you spent any time in LA?

>> CC:  I have.  I have ‑‑ I love Los Angeles.  And if I wasn't tied to New York, I would love to live there.

>> AF:  Yeah.  Where did you grow up? 

>> CC:  I grew up on Long Island.  So I've always been a New Yorker.

>> AF:  Um‑hmm.  And, let's see, so you began working at Lehmann Maupin when?

>> CC:  In 2006.

>> AF:  What was your role when you first started working here?

>> CC:  So my role was a sales associate.  And at that time the gallery was a much smaller operation.  We had one location on West 26th Street.  And the team was definitely growing.  The gallery was growing.  So I came in as a sales associate.  And from there the sales teams ‑‑ the sales team started to grow.  After a couple of years I became a director, and then a partner in 2013.  Now the sales team is eleven people.

>> AF:  Oh, my goodness.  So I guess I am wondering if you can kind of break down all that you do in your multiple roles now, as both director of sales and a partner in the gallery.

In terms of sales, what's a normal day look like for you?  I guess we can start there.

>> CC:  It's hard to say that any day is normal.  There are a lot of plans that I make in the beginning of the day in terms of people that I'm going to call, collectors, or artists.  And then a lot just kind of happens, especially because we are a public space, and people come in throughout the day.  So, you know, I might have a meeting with a collector that was planned, or somebody might just show up and, you know.  So there are always things that are planned, like a viewing that you have a week or two in advance knowing that somebody is going to come in to look at a particular work, or somebody who will just drop in and ask to see something.  So there's a lot of, you know, thinking on your toes and improvising.

>> AF:  Right.  Is there a lot of outreach in your part of the work?  I mean are you going out and finding people who might be a good match for your particular artists? How does that happen?  Or being so established, are people mainly kind of just coming to you?

>> CC:  Well, there's a lot of both that happens.  The gallery is now 19 years old.  So as you can imagine, we have a huge database of collectors that we are constantly reaching out to thinking about who would be the right match for a particular artwork.  And then we are constantly meeting new people, mainly at art fairs.  So that Rolodex is constantly growing.  So there's that ‑‑ there's definitely the day where somebody calls us and is very specific in what they're looking for.  But on our end, we're always trying to do a better job in placing work with collectors that we know whether they might have expressed interest, you know, last week, a month ago, or two years ago, and having that information stored so that we know the right people to [inaudible].

>> AF:  Right.  Right.  And I imagine there's waiting lists for a number of your artists' work, and so kind of figuring out where that work would best be suited is always an issue as well, right?

>> CC:  It is.  I mean it's a great problem to have.  And, you know, we always want to do a good job for the artist and make sure that the work is going to the right place.  And that ‑‑ that ‑‑ the definition of what the right place is is constantly changing as well.  There are more and more museums, more and more collectors who are affiliated with the museums.  And even just, you know, the typical person who maybe doesn't have an affiliation, but is really acquiring an interesting collection.

>> AF:  As you know, there's a lot of conversation around the collector who isn't necessarily attached intellectually or emotionally or psychologically to the work but is using it just as an investment or kind of expanding a portfolio of financial investments, and how damaging that might be for artists in the long run.  And I wonder how ‑‑ how galleries kind of maneuver or navigate those waters?

>> CC:  Well, it can be tricky.  And the part that can be tricky about it is that there are even within that realm of let's say buying for investment, there are people who are maybe buying for short term investment, and that's really what's been very dangerous in the art market these days.  But ultimately we have to accept that art has become somewhat of a commodity.  And if, you know, somebody is buying and they hold it for several years and then they eventually sell it in the right way, I really can't condone that type of behavior, because it is part of what the art world is today.  And it's so big, and so global, that that is really something that is more difficult to control, and not necessarily a bad thing, in my opinion.  But what is really dangerous are the people who are buying works and then flipping them kind of the next day.

>> AF:  Right.  Yeah.

>> CC:  That is ‑‑ it's really difficult to navigate.  I think most galleries, ours included, try to keep lists of these people who are kind of known to do things like that.  And I often share them with colleagues from other galleries, you know, just be careful about so‑and‑so.

>> AF:  Oh, that's great.

>> CC:  Yes, well, because a lot of ‑‑ it's tricky.  Some of these people seem like they could be great collectors, and then you find out later that they're not.  Even ‑‑ even actually people who are museum trustees are engaging in this type of behavior.  So not even that kind of affiliation means what it used to.

>> AF:  Oh, wow. So, that's a really great strategy.  And one way to protect artists is kind of sharing that information.  Are there any other ways that you've already ‑‑ that the gallery has in place that ‑‑ to help kind of ‑‑ like if something does come up for auction, does the gallery have a strategy in place for how they monitor or help collectors ‑‑ I guess you probably point them towards particular ‑‑ 

>> CC:  We do.  We do.  We are watching the auctions very closely.  And we do a lot of outreach to our collectors, because not all collectors watch the auctions.  So sometimes it's a great opportunity for someone who maybe was looking for an artist's work that we don't have, and so we always try to alert them to those opportunities.

>> AF:  That's great.  That's wonderful.  You mentioned art fairs a little while ago.  And I think a lot of artists have a love/hate relationship with the idea of art fairs.  And I know a lot of galleries do too, because it's really changed the landscape entirely for ‑‑ obviously there are some real benefits.  You can see a lot of art in one place.  But it almost takes ‑‑ it's almost like the equivalent of the ‑‑ you know, lost album syndrome in music, where you can kind of just handpick sables.  It's similar in ‑‑ with art where you don't see the exhibition necessarily anymore, you just see individual pieces at these art fairs.

What's your relationship with art galleries, and what are your feelings on ‑‑ I'm sorry, on art fairs?

>> CC:  Well, I agree.  It is a love/hate relationship.  I tend to love them more.  And I think on the gallery side, you know, it's unfortunate but true that viewership of exhibitions has gone down.  And the reality is that you see a lot of collectors and a lot of people that you know that you don't get to see on a regular basis at an art fair.  So for me that's always a great, you know, reason to be there.  And, you know, not just the business side of it, but just really connecting with a lot of people that you don't see, and showing them the new art from your artists is always a great thing, you know, for me.

The downside, and I think something that we really need to work on I think as a community is getting people to galleries more.  And you're right, it's ‑‑ it's ‑‑ a gallery, you know, to see a solo show of an artist is where you really see the context of that artist's work.  And galleries are still working as hard as ever to make good gallery shows.  And the artists obviously are making the work for these shows.  So, you know, I really wish that there was something that we could do to change that.  But I'm hearing more and more from collectors that they just don't go around to see shows as much.

>> AF:  Right.

>> CC:  So that's really what's changed.  But I think that in a way it's kind of not just about the art world.  It's really about our society in general.  Even, you know, if you can relate it to shopping and how much, you know, shopping is done online now.  And, you know, people don't go to stores and just find things.  It's really just about art ‑‑ consumer habits now.

>> AF:  Yeah, right.  So in some ways the brick and mortar isn't necessarily as ‑‑ well, vital, I guess, a player in that.

But ‑‑ but your gallery is expanding into several different versions of its brick and mortar.  Could you talk a little bit about that?

>> CC:  Sure.  So we have three spaces, two in New York, one here in Chelsea and one on the Lower East Side.  And in 2013 we opened a space in Hong Kong.  And for us it's really about the artist, because the artists are really at the core of everything that we do at the gallery.  And the artists are still making shows, still making works that deserve to have the proper space to be exhibited.  And each of our spaces has something unique about it.  Our Chelsea space is a very typical white box space, and our Lower East Side gallery has a much warmer feeling and a double height exhibition space with skylights.  And that offers a different challenge to artists that they really enjoy working with.  And then our Hong Kong space is really about bringing our program to Asia. 

>> AF:  And so with this many spaces now to exhibit in, are you adding a number of artists to your roster?  How are you filling those spaces?

>> CC:  Great question.  Yes, we are adding artists to our roster.  In the last year we've added a couple of artists that we're, you know, very excited about.  Some have had exhibitions already and some have not.  Last year we showed Kader Attia, who is a French Algerian artist.  And this year we'll have a show with Patrick Van Caeckenbergh, who is a Belgian artist.  And we just added Nicholas Hlobo, who is a South African artist.  And he'll have his first show next year.

>> AF:  Great.  How do these artists get on your radar?  Where do you find them?

>> CC:  Really, just by seeing art in ‑‑ all around the world.  We're constantly traveling.  The owners of the gallery, David Maupin and Rochelle Lehmann, are constantly going to biennials, and visiting studios, you know, really ears to the ground, getting referrals and recommendations of interesting artists, often from other artists.  And, you know, it's really, you know, when you're on these trips and seeing as much as you can where you identify someone who you really feel like has a connection to the program.

>> AF:  Um‑hmm.  So these are already established artists.  It's rare that you would take in someone who is an emerging artist; is that correct?

>> CC:  Generally, yes.  But we do look at emerging artists as well.  And sometimes that ‑‑ that happens very, very easily, where, you know, you see someone who is young and doing something that we feel like it's ‑‑ is really interesting and fresh.

>> AF:  Um‑hmm.  What's coming up this summer, exhibition‑wise?

>> CC:  Well, our next shows are Tony Oursler in our Lower East Side gallery, and Mary Corse in the Chelsea gallery.  And Tony is an artist that we've had a long relationship with.  And his multimedia work is constantly evolving and changing with ‑‑ with media itself.

>> AF:  Um‑hmm.

>> CC:  And Mary Corse is an artist based in Southern California dealing with light and space.  And she's an older generation artist that we have come to love and was highlighted in the Pacific Standard Exhibitions, and we feel like she's having a really great moment.

>> AF:  Great.  Just a couple more questions.  I know that Lower East Side space, what ‑‑ what's its history?  It was something else.  It has like a real beautiful detail ‑‑

>> CC:  Yeah.  Well, previously it was a glass factory.

>> AF:  Oh, okay.

>> CC:  So there are even these old kind of tracks that run along the ceiling that used to transport large panes of glass out the door.  And it really then was kind of an empty space for a while.  And I think there were some pop‑up exhibitions that happened there.  Like I think FAIL! had an exhibition there.  And then we took it over in 2007.

>> AF:  Oh, wow, okay.  [Inaudible].

>> CC:  Um‑hmm.

>> AF:  Can you talk a little bit about the vision or mission of Lehmann Maupin?  You know, like what are some of the underlying values that kind of drive the program?

>> CC:  Um‑hmm.  So Lehmann Maupin I think is really attracted to artists who are using a universal language to discuss topics like gender, politics, identity, religion, class.  And a lot of our artists come from all over the world, really every ‑‑ I think every region of the world is represented in the gallery.  But what we find very interesting about these artists is that they are making work that is really universal, that doesn't necessarily tie them to being South African, or Brazilian, but bringing a language together that really everybody can ‑‑ can identify with.

>> AF:  Um‑hmm.  And I know that we're meandering here a little bit through a labyrinth of questions here, but what are some of the best ways you've seen artists promoting themselves?  So I know that you're finding artists through all of your travels and through, you know, these art fairs and biennials, et cetera, but, you know, we're speaking to an audience of makers for the most part.  What do you think are some successful models for artists to follow?

>> CC:  Well, it's hard to identify a single model that works for everyone, but what I find that ‑‑ that I ‑‑ that I connect with in terms of looking at new art is really artists who have a community, artists who are part of some kind of a community that really support each other and, you know, in some way by word of mouth you get a studio visit, because you're ‑‑ you're artist friend had a studio visit and then recommends you also to see this artist.  So a lot of times I go on studio visits like that where people say, oh, you should look at this artist, or you should look at that artist.  And it's really about this network of connections.  And I think that that's kind of crucial, particularly in today's world where there is so much competition.  And I think that, you know, starting at a place like Yale, where you have this community of your fellow students, and then once you graduate from there kind of keeping some kind of a network together, I think is really important.

>> AF:  That's great.  I mean, it's the old cliché, but it's absolutely true, [inaudible].  Not only does it further your career, but just in terms of making the work better and ‑‑

>> CC:  Getting feedback.  I would just imagine it would be really hard to have that kind of lonely artist making work somewhere in the middle of nowhere.  Or not even that they are in the middle of nowhere, but with no connection I think that you really need to ‑‑ to work hard at keeping those connections.

>> AF:  Yeah, absolutely.  I wonder if you could offer any advice as to how those artists might make connections with curators or gallerists in a way that seems less ‑‑ I don't know, that seems in keeping with the professional approach for you?

>> CC:  Um‑hmm.

>> AF:  I mean other than the word of mouth through that community, is there anything that you could recommend for our listeners?

>> CC:  Well, that is a little bit more difficult for me to answer, because I ‑‑ you know, I'm not a curator, so I don't know what methods curators use to go on studio visits.  But I ‑‑ I find that, you know, just asking for studio visits, you get.  It's like if you don't ask, you don't get.  So even if you don't have a connection, you know, I'm sure there are places even like, you know, the typical nonprofits, like a White Columns, where, you know, you make submissions, and you get them to come to your studio, or things like that.  I hope that helps.  But, like I said, I don't have a lot of expertise in the area.

>> AF:  No, I agree.  And I think a lot of artists have actually gotten their start at White Columns.  So it's a perfect example of a nonprofit that helps forward the work of young artists.

Well, thank you so much, Caral Camacho, for talking with me today.  I really appreciate it.

>> CC:  My pleasure.  Thank you.